The Lower Quote, As If You Didn't Know, Is By Richard Dawkins, Son.

Monday, June 02, 2008

Jesus Didn't Tap?

Most of you know that I'm a big fan of mixed martial arts fighting (MMA). There have been a bunch of events recently, but I'm not really going to talk about that here anymore as I've set up a blog for just that over at Heathen MMA, so check that out if you're interested in fisticuffs and violence.

Here, however, I want to mention that one of the fighters I saw tonight had a company logo on his little banner called Jesus Didn't Tap. Now, for those not initiated into the dark art of beating someone senseless, one way for a person to win a bout is if you have your opponent in a hold (arm lock, choke, etc...) where they can't get out and are in too much pain to continue, they can tap on your leg, arm, body, floor to signify their giving up. That's the ref's cue to stop the fight and your cue as the winning fighter to let go.

So, that means that the whole Jesus Didn't Tap thing is retarded as a concept. Jesus, a possibly mythical character to begin with, was nailed to a giant cross and left to die a slow painful death. He probably cried. A lot. May have peed on himself. No one would blame the guy...geez, you're nailed to a fuckin' cross. Cut a brother some slack. Actually, I'll let the website speak for itself:
Jesus went through so much for us and didn't tap. He was beaten so bad that you could not even recognize him from head to toe, yet he still didn't tap. Not only did he not tap but he came back and defeated Satan by crushing his head to win after the beating he went through.

If he would have tapped we would be in hell. We would be in pain mentally and physically 24/7, but Jesus didn't tap for us, so we don't have to live a life of hell.

Jesus is the Champion
Um...anyone else a little weirded out by this? I certainly feel bad for the guy's daughter, no one wants to have to deal with that sort of challenge and you get through it however you have to, but I do have to poke a little fun at the idea and, specifically, the clothing line - don't you love the rap song? Yeah, me neither.
...to all you other people, don't talk smack, 'cause I'll tell you right now, Jesus didn't tap....
*sigh* Why can't violence and mayhem just be the domain of the despicable heathens like me?

(Interesting side note: I love how at the bottom of the t-shirt page, there's the Jesus Didn't Tap logo second from the right, immediately next to Dramma Girl and a busty female silhouette. Very Christian.)

21 Barbaric Yawps:

At 2/6/08 7:00 pm, Anonymous JohnnyPotamus said...

Matthew 26:36:
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me.

Jesus tapped, and the ref didn't call it. Brutal.

 
At 3/6/08 5:16 pm, Blogger Ordinary Girl said...

I had to send that one to my husband. I don't think I've heard such terrible rapping since Top That. (And actually that's more visually bad than audibly bad.)

 
At 3/6/08 6:02 pm, Anonymous Skeptico said...

As Johnny pointed out - Jesus just wasn't given the option to tap. Those wacky Romans!

 
At 4/6/08 7:51 pm, Anonymous Ric said...

A fellow skeptic AND a fellow MMA fanatic? I can't believe I found someone like me.

 
At 4/6/08 10:28 pm, Blogger Heathen Mike said...

The list of us skeptic/MMA junkies is short but distinguished ;)

 
At 3/7/08 10:56 am, Anonymous Kisha said...

I think you all need JESUS. He could have called down thousands of Angels to save himself however he did not tap out and say your not worth it to me. He went ahead and died knowing there were going to be people like you that would reject him. I actaully own the shirt and have it on today and i am proud to wear it because my jesus didn't tap and leave me for a life of hell he saved my soul.

 
At 5/7/08 12:03 pm, Anonymous Geoff said...

I'm a skeptic about a lot of things too, but at least let's be informed. To say that Jesus was "maybe a mythical character" is a horrendously erroneous statement. There is far too much historical evidence.

Josephus, in the book Jewish Antiquities" wrote:

"At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. . . .And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of the Christians, so called from him, subsists at this time" (Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 1).

No doubt he lived. No doubt he did miracles. Once you understand this, you'll see why we believe he had the power to crush the whole army with just one spoken word but he allowed himself to be killed. It was a choice.

Jesus didn't tap.

Check out

http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/historical-and-scientific-proof-of-jesus-faq.htm

for more info about the historicity of Jesus.

 
At 6/7/08 1:17 am, Blogger Heathen Mike said...

Well I'll take you seriously, because obviously when you want unbiased information about Jesus, you go to http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org.

Fuck me, and thanks, but I'll look elsewhere. Are you the same person who selects "studies" that prove the efficacy of acupuncture as well? Yeah, I thought so.

 
At 6/7/08 2:29 am, Blogger Ephesians said...

Dude, don't make yourself sound so ignorant by using cuss words, I'm sure you are more intelligent than that. Jesus's main mission is to find the lost & save them. He does that through love. Many people that were so far gone off the deep end have been saved. It's okay brother, go the website http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/
In God's love!

 
At 6/7/08 10:16 am, Blogger Ordinary Girl said...

Mike, it looks like someone from that website found your post and decided to send everyone over here to bug you about it. Because we all know that if enough people re-state the same point it makes it correct. Evidence isn't the source or reality. And imaginary friends really do exist.

 
At 6/7/08 10:23 am, Blogger Heathen Mike said...

That's what I love about religious people: The tremendous conceit that they just can't conceive anyone could have actually gone to the website (as I have) and yet, somehow, still think religion is retarded and non-sensical...which it still is.

"Jesus's main mission is to find the lost & save them. He does that through love.

Um, Jesus, if he even was a real guy, is dead. He doesn't find anyone - people like you do. And you don't "save them" through love, you "save them" by convincing them that they're powerless against what afflicts them and that your imaginary friend is the only one who can help.

I'm not saying religion hasn't helped people - obviously it has. My point is, and always has been, that there are better ways to help than making desperate people believe in fairy tales.

Oh, and "dude", if words like fuck hurt your tender eyes and ears, please be mature enough to look past them to my argument. Using "cuss words" (I love that childish repulsion to all things "bad") in no way diminishes what I'm saying, so get the fuck over it.

 
At 19/7/08 10:31 pm, Anonymous radicalsforjesus.org said...

I may be greatly disturbed when you are so insulting to my Savior, however I don't wish you to be a Christian. The elect are saved. You could not understand because you have not yet been invited. If you really think that we are all docile minded fools who would believe the story of Jesus because another human said so then you are the dim one. I will tell you from experience that if you ever encounter the Holy Spirit you will not be able to resist. You are a mere human, and IF the Holy Spirit chooses you then you will become a babbling Jesus freak like me.

 
At 20/7/08 12:58 am, Blogger Heathen Mike said...

"I may be greatly disturbed when you are so insulting to my Savior..."

Great. If every time I insult your "Savior", you guys left it to him/her/it to be insulted and deal with me, it'd be a better place. You know, if he/she/it is the creator of all that is, he/she/it should be able to, you know, make me stop or change my mind.

"If you really think that we are all docile minded fools who would believe the story of Jesus because another human said so then you are the dim one."
You don't believe because another human (via a book) told you so? Ok, so what's your evidence? Why do you believe? What reason is so convincing? And don't give me the bullshit of "Well you wouldn't understand because you haven't been invited".

And no, I'm not a "mere human", I'm human just like you. We're all the same. You just choose to believe in something for which there is no evidence. If you think there is evidence, I invite you to produce it.

 
At 21/7/08 1:31 am, Anonymous radicalsforjesus.org said...

No Jesus doesn't need me to come to his defense. I made a comment because my Irish ancestry can't resist a good debate. I was intrigued by your opinion, however I don't feel you need to piss on my beliefs to have a good debate with me. Hence, I expressed that opinion. I don't believe because of the Bible. I believe because God confronted me. You could have possibly knocked me off my rocker when I was fresh in my faith, but not now because the Spirit has worked a great transformation in me. I was a depraved individual and proud of it. When I look at old pictures and talk to old friends and relatives I find myself amazed at the person I am today. So initially I believed because of my confrontation with God. Now I believe because Jesus has lived in me and freed me. You seem like an intelligent guy so I am not going to insult you by listing every scholar who wrote about Christianity. The only evidence I have is the grace that lives within my heart and the miracles I have witnessed in my own life. I know that another man's experience is not going to be good enough evidence for an avid debater like yourself so I hope that God will give you the same evidence he gave me. There is no more concrete evidence than personal experience.

 
At 21/7/08 7:45 am, Blogger Heathen Mike said...

"There is no more concrete evidence than personal experience."

See, that's the problem. I hear that all the time from people like you (religious folks), alt. health believers, ghost people... Yes there is more concrete evidence - not only is there, but personal experience is probably the WORST type of evidence.

It's the old Feynman quote coming back to haunt everyone: "The first rule is to not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool."

If you would only be slightly open to the idea that maybe you're wrong, we'd have some sort of starting point. Oh, and don't bother throwing that idea back at me because I'm well aware that I could be wrong.

Here's the test, really. What evidence could someone present to you that might change your mind and make you reconsider your position? I have a nice list here of stuff that could happen to get me reconsidering MY perspective, but I'm curious about you Jesus people.

 
At 21/7/08 11:54 pm, Anonymous radicalsforjesus.org said...

Perhaps I didn't elaborate enough. My personal experience is not tangible and of course is only usable as evidence in my mind. If I stub my toe I am not fooled. The pain is real and my mind uses that experience as evidence for making a conclusion. You could trust me and believe it hurts to stub your toe, but if you chose not to trust me then you would have to experience it yourself. My point is that you can resist what ever reasoning comes along until the truth is staring you in the face. I can't prove anything. As far as being wrong goes..... I am pretty sure that I have been wrong about something different everyday of my life. I am a pretty fallible person. I wouldn't presume to tell you that you are wrong when I know that a person makes judgements in life based on experience and knowledge acquired. Humankind in it's entirety is wrong a great amount of the time about a great many things. (Sorry I was watching star wars 6 with my kids the other day) Christians can be very odd sometimes and I know that I was repelled for many years by Christians and their Churches. I know I used to be appalled at their behavior sometimes and say, "they call themselves a Christian?" What I should have been saying was, "they must have really been bad before." Jesus offers us a chance to be better than we were, and I am better than before. I think I would have to die and find out I was wrong, but then it wouldn't matter would it? I am not saying you could not throw some evidence my way that might throw me into a frenzy of research and questions. I am very sure that at the end of my quest my faith would be strengthened.

 
At 22/7/08 8:01 am, Blogger Heathen Mike said...

If I stub my toe I am not fooled. The pain is real and my mind uses that experience as evidence for making a conclusion.

The difference here is that I can see the bed. I know you've probably heard the saying, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" before, but it's true. If someone says they can fly, well I'm going to want to see that under conditions that show it is impossible to cheat.

When someone says that there was a guy who lived 2000 years ago that did these crazy tricks (loaves & fishes, walking on water, curing blind people, coming back from the dead...), why would I believe them? Hell, if I show someone a card trick, ten minutes later when they tell their friend about it they get all the details wrong. Nothing was written about Jesus for (if I'm not mistaken) at least 50 years - probably longer, so imagine the amount of fabrication possible.

There are some good ideas in the bible, but there are a LOT of bad ones. It's like Oprah - occasionally decent, mostly pseudo-spiritual, hoaky, ridiculous, harmful bullshit. In my opinion, it's better to get your morals and ethical guidelines from a better place.

 
At 22/7/08 9:34 am, Blogger Chaosknight said...

I just happened to stumble across this blog in my daily travels and I instantly became intrigued.

I would like to say to Heathen Mike that you sir, are indeed correct. The New Testament was written after the death of Jesus. It is also very possible (and likely for that matter) that details were forgotten/changed/exaggerated/etc and even more likely that the word was changed in a way to benefit those writing it. The original King James Version of the bible was translated and written in a way to control his people. However, many of the major and some of the minor exploits of Jesus were prophesied hundreds of years before Jesus was born. And the oldest found writings of this were written in a language that most of the people of that time and region couldn't even read. It seems that it can hardly be a coincidence that some many of the things written came to pass.

And to RascalsforJesus

"However I don't wish you to be a Christian. The elect are saved. You could not understand because you have not yet been invited."

Are you serious?? Statements like that are the reason Christians have so much trouble convincing non-believers of the value of Christ. Christians (I am generalizing) are so quick to condemn others, but Christians are the ones that should be condemned. Only the elect are saved? The "elect" does not mean those chosen, i.e. Christians, elect means superior, excellent, or elite. To be elect is to hold the highest values and morals; to be the elite among the people. Just because you are a Christian, does not mean you are elect.

"You have not yet been invited." My friend, God has favor on all of his people... everyone is invited. God does not just favor Christians. He favors the non-believer, the skeptic, the atheist, the Jew, the Muslim, the unrighteous, and so on. Christians are not better than any other people. They simply have an advantage. They know the path they need to walk, and they have the ability to walk through the door when the time comes.

Heathen Mike, extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence, but there will be a time that the evidence might just show itself to you. You just need to be willing to see it.

Those who know Christ have seen the evidence that makes the believe, it gives them faith. Once a person has faith, it is very difficult to lose. In a very secular view, the bible and religion is simply a matter of faith. Christians choose to believe based on what they experience and frankly have no right to condemn those that do not yet believe, or who may never believe

Just curious, where would be a better place to get morals and ethical guidelines from? Almost all of the laws and guidelines we follow in a secular society stem from those taught in the bible.

 
At 22/7/08 10:13 am, Blogger Heathen Mike said...

"...where would be a better place to get morals and ethical guidelines from? Almost all of the laws and guidelines we follow in a secular society stem from those taught in the bible."

We (everyone) get our morals and values from our parents, friends, and social groups. We give credit to books like the Bible, but the traits and behaviors we value were around before it was ever written.

Do you think that before Moses came down from the mountain (figuratively speaking, of course), killing and stealing and lying were all a-ok? Of course not. Traits like empathy and reciprocity are evident in other species (bonobos and chimpanzees, for example), so obviously they're ingrained in animals that depend on group living.

When you live in a pack, it makes no sense to allow members to go around murdering and stealing. Although the bible claims to be the basis for laws and values, that doesn't make it so.

 
At 22/7/08 2:53 pm, Blogger Chaosknight said...

Here's the test, really. What evidence could someone present to you that might change your mind and make you reconsider your position? I have a nice list here of stuff that could happen to get me reconsidering MY perspective, but I'm curious about you Jesus people.

Are you willing to share that list?
I am willing to share mine. The number one thing that would cause me to stop believing would be if a person could objectively prove that the universe is completely deterministic. Furthermore, if that person could accurately predict the future from there, I would stop believing on the spot. What is the point then anyway, the wonders of life had been taken away.

"Traits like empathy and reciprocity are evident in other species...so obviously they're ingrained in animals that depend on group living."

I disagree with you on that level. If you feel that humans rely on group living then continue reading, if you don't they next paragraph is moot.

According to modern science, humans are the most advanced and most intelligent beings on the planet. However, in the rise to that spot, they have lost empathy and reciprocity.

If one looks at the disaster of Hurricane Katrina one can see and example of this. No one can deny that the government and law systems in the area failed during that time. When they did, the true nature of humans came out. People were fighting, stealing (not just food, but electronics, gold, and other things that don't matter in 12 feet of water) and caring only about themselves. The reason? They do not fear the laws or the consequences of the actions, and by this they certainly do not exhibit empathy and reciprocity. I do have to say that not all people were included with this, but it would go to show that those people who did not act like this were governed by something other than nature.

If a time of disaster is too harsh of an example to look at, take a look at prehistoric society. Those that were bigger, stronger, better hunters, better fighters could do whatever they wanted, take whatever they wanted, and kill whomever they wanted because they did not have to fear the consequences.

When looking at it in a biblical sense, one would have to realize that the book was written after the events occurred. Something did not come to pass and then instantly written in the bible. The ideas and concepts written therein were around long before it was written.

Biblically, it is written that laws existed before Moses decreed them to the people. If one would look into Noahic laws, given by God in the covenant with Noah, one would see that there were laws in place long before and major society.

We may get our morals and values from our parents and friends, but they are simply the morals (modified of course) passed from those in the times written about in the bible. The bible does not claim to be the basis of the values we follow; God is the basis of the values we follow.

Whether you accept it or not, it is difficult to disagree with the fact that the world we live in was developed on religious ideals and beliefs.

 
At 22/7/08 10:25 pm, Blogger Heathen Mike said...

There's so many things I take issue with here.

"...the wonders of life had been taken away."

Firstly, I have to say that my biggest pet peeve with religious people is when they say that science takes the wonder away from life. That science "unweaves the rainbow". It's the exact reverse - religions just fill any gaps in knowledge with "god did it" and then the search is over.

Scientists love gaps in knowledge, love it when things that are supposed to happen, don't. It's in the areas where stuff doesn't work where new cool things are found. Religion hasn't found anything or helped humanity in any tangible way.

I know you're going to jump on that last sentence - but in your example of Hurricane Katrina and the looters, how many of those people running around stealing do you think were church-goers? Also, a fact that you seemed to overlook; sure there were some people doing bad things in a time of crisis, but the percentage was small when you look at how many people were actually affected. There's always going to be a group of douchebags.

"...those people who did not act like this were governed by something other than nature."

I never said that greed and extreme self-preservation were not present in us. "Nature" sweeps a wide path through human behavior and you're going to get the majority of people acting in a normal, helping, empathetic manner with their reason intact.

"Those that were bigger, stronger, better hunters, better fighters could do whatever they wanted, take whatever they wanted, and kill whomever they wanted because they did not have to fear the consequences."

Sure, but did they kill and steal from members of their own tribe/group? The strongest/best hunter may end up being the leader, but he/she must always fear a revolt from the masses if they act unfairly. There is a sense of justice and equity in people that is not based in religion - hell, religions have notoriously abused power.

"God is the basis of the values we follow...Whether you accept it or not, it is difficult to disagree with the fact that the world we live in was developed on religious ideals and beliefs."

*sigh* Really? I can and do disagree. What I do agree with is that religions have claimed that they are responsible for the values and morality we frequently see - although a bit of world travel and you'll see VASTLY different moral codes.

One of the great feats of religion (Abrahamic ones, anyway) is to re-write history and keep telling people and telling people and telling people that ONLY THEY have the way and the light, the morals and the compass. Sorry, but I don't buy it. The religions themselves only believe it when it suits them or when they can't get away with killing unbelievers like me.

I mean, jesus, over at PZ's blog, Catholics are threatening to kill him over a fucking cracker. Are you kidding me?

This is going nowhere and we're obviously not going to convince each other of anything so I'm going to close the comments on this thread. Feel free to comment on another post though.

Oh, and I'll post my list of things that would convince me to rethink my atheism/agnosticism in a future post very soon.

 

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